One of the most exciting things to happen in the gay world over the last few years has been the dedication of a growing number of galleries to homoerotic art.
The most recent gallery to open is the New York branch of Amsterdam’s famed Rob Gallery. Rob – the last name is Meijer, but is never used – is probably the most famous gay person in the Netherlands, and also one of the most infamous S&M people in that country. His lover, Dai Evans, has moved to the U.S. to manage the New York branch. Together they form one of the most formidable teams in the gay art world, and certainly one of the most outspoken.
Numbers was able to spend an afternoon with the two of them during Rob’s most recent trip tot the States; he had come over for the Nigel Kent show titled “Dear Master”. While sitting in their townhouse in Greenwich Village, the two men talked to us on a wide range of subjects, from S&M to art to sexual liberation.
It’s not the usual Numbers style to print articles on topics like “gay art”. But, this interview with two such vibrant, articulate men who share the Numbers lifestyle seemed like a unique opportunity for us to explore the real-life experience of our world.
For more information on the Rob Amsterdam Gallery, send $20 for a copy of their catalogue, or stop in during the gallery’s opening hours, 2-6pm, Saturdays and Sundays. It’s located at 8A Charles Lane, New York, NY 10014.
Tell us about yourselves. How did you come to open these galleries?
Rob: I’m much older, so my story is much longer! I started off as a tailor. I then became a designer of women’s dresses. At a certain moment I met an artist, an Australian. He was worried about our public image. He said, why don’t you stop designing dresses and start making leather clothes. I slowly started and soon I opened a leather shop and completely relinquished my former profession. We lived together for three years. At that time he was mainly a sculptor and he had a big studio – it was all very exciting. When the relationship finally broke down, one of his last statements was:”Now you will lose your interest in art as well.” So I started a gallery to prove him wrong. (Laughing.) Another friend, who I lived with immediately afterwards, and I decided to have a painting made. The two of us were both dressed in leather. We looked like generals but with sex symbols on our uniforms. Having that painting made was the actual start of the gallery. I wrote a long letter to Tom of Finland. He was the first artist to have an exhibition so I’ve continued. This was three years ago. And then one day a guy came in and ordered a very special cockring which I had to custom-make and he never left. This was Dai.
Dai:I’m a Welshman. I studied in London; I have a doctorate in Physics. I’ve painted works myself. I enjoy it; I find it relaxing – if I can find the time.
Did you live in Amsterdam?
Dai: No, I was living in London. I ended up commuting on a weekly basis. I spent every Friday to Sunday night in Holland. My background wasn’t in art galleries or in leather shops. On the other hand, when I was in Amsterdam – the place was so full of life and alle these people were interested in the gallery and in the shop – I felt sort of useless. I started to get more interested; I started some cataloguing and things like that. From there, well… I just continued to get further into it until my work brought me to New York with this branch of the gallery.
You must have wonderful stories about unexpected events that have happened in the two locations.
Rob: Sometimes in my leather shop. But the galleries are a more restrictive place – like a museum. I do remember someone who came in and wanted to know where I had my dockworkers hanging. He expected me to have real men on my walls!
Dai: You can tell when a special picture turns someone on.
Rob: Oh yes, I do remember one time when a collector was having a birthday party. I had to deliver a very small S&M picture to him as a present. It was passed around among his friends. Within an hour, four of the people had told me all about their sex life. Sharing that picture had given them the freedom to tell someone about their deepest secrets.
In this country many of our artists live by producing drawings, pictures or photographs as visuals for gay magazines; what’s the difference between how people make a living in Europe and in the United States?
Rob: I don’t like to sound arrogant – but the start of my gallery had a major effect in Europe. It gave a lot of gay artists the opportunity to start making works about their own feelings. And now, suddenly, they know where to go with them. Before that, gay artists who like to draw had nowhere to go. They had to put their work in their own files, so to speak. Now, if it is of a certain quality, it will be shown by us.
Dai: I don’t mean to take exception, but what do you mean by “gay art”?
The question’s open.
Dai: Probably the majority of artists in this gallery is gay. That, I think, is irrelevant to art. There are artists who, though people may make presumptions based on what they see here, are not gay. I try to be very careful to consider the art in this gallery as art. If somebody asks me if I think this is a gay art gallery, my answer is no. Because when some works are obviously appealing to gays, we can take other works which could be in any gallery and would never be considered gay.
The question seems to be: Is the artist self-defined as being gay, or is the product especially appreciated by gay people. Either would produce a very loose definition of “gay art”.
Dai: Agreed. There is, though, a tendency for people not to do that. Rather, they specify with too much clarity that something is or is not “gay art”.
A short word from the gallery owner in RoB's Art Gallery catalogue published in 1979.
You are in a very unique cross-cultural position to make that judgement – which I don’t dispute. You’re both Europeans; you’re based on both sides of the Atlantic. Is it a particularly American attitude that we’re so adamant about a concept like the existence of “gay art”?
Dai: It shows how far gays have come in the last few years that now, indeed, you can talk about works like those by the photographer Phillip Beard which even five years ago the artist himself perhaps wouldn’t have shown on his own walls. Perhaps the fact that people even refer to “gay art” is reflecting progress.
Rob: I want to add something which you may find related. There’s a large collection of erotic art held by the Kronhausens; they’ve published at least two volumes of their holdings as books. In the gay art scene there is a completely different view that this selection of what the “normal” art crowd understands. That makes it a very special thing. The “normal world”- I don’t know how to give it a name – can’t deal with gay art because it’s so explicit, it’s so new. Now, though, art magazines are beginning to accept gay art as a special form of expression. These works here in this gallery couldn’t – can’t – be made by heterosexuals because they don’t have the situations.
Straight people certainly get involved in S&M. Are gays just freer in portraying the acts?
Rob: There is a lot of difference, though. Even in S&M. Everybody has seen the high-heeled women with spiked shoes, but it’s just not the same as someone showing an open ass with a fist in it. That hasn’t been shown before. That’s why this whole area is an interesting form of art.
Is S&M – the way the drama of S&M and the imagery of leather can be used – a particularly strong base for good art?
Rob: That has to do with the times we are living in. 30 years ago gay art depicted elegantly dressed men. Today the people are into S&M.
Dai: Is S&M a vogue that will pass?
Rob: Of course it will pass. (Smiling) Though not for you!
Do you really believe that?
Dai: If you see 6 guys in the Village with leather jackets, how many are into S&M?
If I’m lucky, one.
Rob: Do you want to be lucky?
I always want to be lucky!
Dai: Look, what I’m trying to say is that I think you have to be very careful about distinguishing between S&M and the imagery of leather. There’s a lot more imagery involved than reality. If you go to a West Street bar, you’re lucky if even 50% of the people are into it. The question is one of style. Will next year still find them wearing bomber jackets?
Still, at the moment — technically and conceptually — the work by Nigel Kent you show is certainly art. It is so good it will survive this vogue.
Dai: What you say is very important. Technically this is good art. Lack of technique will destroy a good concept. There can also be good technique destroyed by lack of ideas.
Does the drama, imagery, and tension of S&M sex constitute an art form by itself? All three of us say we’re “into S&M”. Are our lives an art form?
Rob: Of course! Let’s call S&M a form of art. S&M is, after all, acting. And acting is art!
When we talk about lifestyles being art, Rob, you’ve taken your sexuality and your S&M and created a living space, a work space, a life around them.
Rob: Yes. In Amsterdam I have a four-floor house. The leather shop is in the basement; it looks like a dungeon. The ground floor is actually the gallery. Everyone has to pass through it to get to the shop. On the next floor I have an extension of the gallery and then, finally, my living space above that.
As a result, 99% of my life is based on sex in some way. It feels so good! But, sometimes I get the feeling it is too narrow. I’m slowly breaking my life more open. There are so very few people in my life who aren’t gay men that I’ve begun to worry about it. I now need to test how much real freedom I have. It’s important that I have a free life for myself; now I want the acceptance of the world.
And you, Dai? What does it feel like to go from a life of being a physicist to this existence in which you’re surrounded by erotic art?
Dai: Fun! I’m not concerned with being overwhelmed by it, because whenever I have that feeling about anything, I know enough to get out and regain my perspective.
"The Art Matchbox is a discreet handmade box, done in black linen. In each box is a black linen folder which contains six small original prints, all by one artist. These prints measure 6 x 10 centimetres. The title page of the box is signed and numbered by the artist. Each edition is limited to 60 copies. One of the Matchboxes does not contain graphic work, but a small brass sculpture." From the RoB Gallery catalogue, do note Nigel Kent's initials "J.D." on the right.
I’m intrigued by how much of Nigel Kent’s work portrays bondage. When people talk about S&M they often use the phrase too easily; bondage, for instance, can be a very specialized scene. What does the particular emphasis on bondage relate to here?
Rob: Well, I happen to know Nigel’s story quite well. He goes through a lot of periods, each of them quite short and heavy. His work reflects the lover he has at the moment. If he gets a friend who’s into bondage, he’s 100% into it and ends up expressing that in his art.
For instance, he has a new lover now who is into fist fucking; his latest works show that new interest. I think it’s a good thing that he is reaching and expressing a range of his emotions. He actually comes off from his drawings.
Dai: Bondage isn’t something that’s going to be depicted in many other galleries, remember. And remember, too, that the bondage works by Nigel Kent which you happen to see here are a small part of his work. It’s only an accident of time that they look so overwhelming at the moment. You know, part of the value of the wide range of Nigel’s work – and all the erotic art we show – is the creation of options. It’s like heterosexual couples who only have sex in one position with the man always on top and so forth. And one day they read the Kama Sutra. Let’s say they are only able to see one other position, that’s a new option and maybe then they’ll read all of the book and realize how very many options they have – perhaps too many to accomplish in a life time.
But they could have so much fun trying!
Rob: (Laughing) We must get back to art!
One important thing we haven’t touched on is the way gay men have been reclaiming our masculinity over the last ten years. Many of Kent’s images fit into this trend; they are of idealized modern men, not necessarily S&M. Take his drawing of the man in a jump suit with his cockring and pierced tit.
Dai: The imagery of much S&M art is going to appeal to someone who would like to actually do what’s being depicted. That drawing has more imagery. It will appeal to more people.
Rob: It’s another stage Nigel went through. With some of my artists I say, “I can see exactly how you masturbate. The hand in your drawings is always holding the cock the same way.” I think they should be freerNigel is one who knows plenty ways to hold a cock.
It’s really indicative of his skill that his technique takes symbols and imagery that were used by amateurish pornographers and lifts them into the plane of erotic art.
Rob: I really do try to talk to my artists and help develop their way of thinking. When I went back to Amsterdam from my last trip to New York, I told Nigel I wanted something different and the result has been a series of wholly new still lives.
He has grown so much in a short period! When Nigel started off, do you know he didn’t want to use his real name? He created the name “James D.” I don’t know what it’s from, he insists it’s nothing to do with James Dean. But now he’s so proud of his work that he’s confused about which name to use. I told him not to let James D. die. Continue to use both.
There’s a wonderful statement I once heard from a lesbian: That gay people are the alchemists of the 20th century. We have taken what was poisonous and have turned it into gold. Certainly, that’s what gay erotic artists are doing today. They’ve taken the loathed symbols of another period – the images of the supposedly decadent and depraved life of homosexuality – and transformed them into art.
Dai: We shouldn’t forget that much of middle America still considers us poison.
Yes, but it’s still a stunning development that we’ve transformed our self-image so much that people will now buy the original art that you sell and hang it on their walls.
Dai: There really are people who come here and try to find exactly those works they can keep out of the closet.
Rob: I actually tell people they should hang 10 or 20 pictures, then they are “collectors” and nobody will challenge them!
Almost all of your works are originals. While they’re reasonably priced, given the rest of the art market, doesn’t that limit who can buy this art?
Rob: Yes. But our gallery is young. We’d like to do lithographs that more people could afford, but it’s expensive and very difficult for us. For now, we have the matchbox series of limited editions. One is a piece of sculpture, in fact. They are in the tradition of fine erotic art collecting that existed among the wealthy in Europe for centuries. They are small, 12 x 3 x 8 centimeters, and are priced $270 or less. So, they are one item in reach of many people. And we do have a very few lithographs.
Do you have many customers who are buying this newly available homoerotic art as a collecting investment? Do you think it is a valid time to buy good gay art?
Dai: The key is your word “good”. For the discerning buyer, this is certainly a good opportunity. I’m not convinced that male erotic art per se is a good investment – I wouldn’t want to overly encourage any purchase of art. Remember how few galleries there are to buy and sell the works. There are only five here in New York and only our own in Amsterdam.
Rob: But, slowly the work is being noticed by the art magazines. Soon we will start to get the heterosexual – I hate these words – starting to collect gay art.
Your next show is going to be of Hans van Manen’s photography.
Rob: Yes. He is the choreographer of the Netherlands Dance Theatre. Besides that, he has always been a photographer. He’s had two shows of homoerotic work in Holland.
These are clearly sexual photographs. Is it simply indicative of a freer society that a Dutchman in such a public position is able to show his work under his own name?
Rob: Yes. We have a very open life in Amsterdam. When we meet a friend we just kiss, in the theatre for instance, in a very normal way.
Dai Evans in leather shorts as painted by Keso Dekker. Acrylic on canvas, 1979, 100 x 100 cm.
You’ve given a very clear indication of Nigel Kent’s ways of being inspired, how his personal sex life produces his artistic imagery. I wish my own sex life were so diverse! But this inspiration isn’t the only path open to an artist, obviously. This autumn you’re having a show by Keso Dekker. Those works haven’t been produced yet.
Rob: No, they haven’t. Keso has rented a house on Fire Island where he will work and take in the impressions of the summer and do the paintings that will comprise our autumn show.
His work is completely different from the others we have talked about. It’s acrylic painting. Quite simple, but very interesting to look at.
There’s one thing I especially appreciate about Keso. I am almost frightened about the gallery’s image sometimes. So much of our art seems to be S&M. I don’t want us to be so limited. A former visit to Fire Island by this artist produced beautiful paintings of the beach – often with only a tiny naked man on the horizon. It’s something everybody can hang on their walls, and fantasize about.
I like these works because I think everybody should be able to make a choice of what kind of art they like and not be restricted; people shouldn’t have to be pushed into a single direction; they shouldn’t have to accept a label.
Keso is a very serious artist. By the way, he’s actually the original artist who did the portrait I was talking about. He lives very close to me and drops in at least once a week. We have a chance to talk a lot, and he is very interested in the gallery.
He’s also done a very special portrait of Dai, as you see here. I like to inspire artists myself. I made Dai those leather shorts. And I thought, “This is lovely. It must become a painting.” I went to Keso and discussed it and there was a painting that no one expected.
Dai, what’s your side to that story?
Dai: I knew Rob was interested in having my portrait done. It was unknown to me that Keso was coming over. Rob had set it up as a sort of session. Keso said, “Put on your shorts.” It was very exciting, very, very exciting. It did wonders to my ego. We were both extremely pleased when we saw it.
Rob: It is very exciting when you build something up with an artist. The idea is born, he works on it, he won’t let you see it in progress and then suddenly he calls, “Can I bring it over?” You put it on the wall and look at it like two children. It’s so exciting.
Dai: It was particularly nice knowing the artist so well.
Rob: I’m having a bust of myself done – naked from the waist up wearing only a leather cap and a long leather glove. It will be something that’s not been done before. It’s what makes gay art so good. I want to inspire other people to have their portraits done in these ways.
Dai: The whole atmosphere stimulates us all to do more. That’s what I find exciting. We had a poetry reading here last week. We didn’t know if anyone would show up. In fact, it was packed with interested people who helped create the atmosphere.
Rob: Yes, and it’s important to me that the galleries do this. I don’t want us to be limited to painting. In Holland we turned the gallery into a theatre for a gay troupe for a couple of days. It led to other engagements for them. I don’t want to be egocentric, but that’s what excites me. To have a theatre performance leading to more. Or to have a portrait done which leads to others doing the same. It used to be that only very important people had busts made of themselves. I want to take that art form to the people.
Especially for gay men whose very existence was denied them for so long. Now we find our lifestyles, our sex-styles, ourselves, being depicted in art.
Dai: I agree. Excitement is the word!
Source: Preston, John. “A Well Hung Gallery. A Portfolio of ROB’s Hot Men from Europe,” Numbers. July, 1980.
Picture credits: All pictures in this article are taken from the RoB Art Gallery catalogue which was published in 1979.
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